On today’s show, Ryan Knuppel of Knup Solutions and Keith McDonnell of KMiGaming sit down to discuss how the Covid-19 pandemic has shifted our businesses and our industry. They discuss things like, how businesses can pivot, how the sports betting industry will bounce back, when will sports return, & more!


Show notes from Keith McDonnell Interview

Ryan Knuppel: All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Knup Sports Show. I’m your host, Ryan Knuppel here with you each and every episode. Today is going to be a little different format. Today, I’m going to sit down with Keith McDonnell. Keith is the CEO of KMiGaming. Keith, are you with me?

Keith McDonnell: I’m with you, Ryan. How are you doing?

Ryan Knuppel: I am blessed my friend. I’m blessed and I’m blessed that you’re here with me to talk a little bit about the, I don’t know, just what’s going on in the sports betting space and in business space during this COVID-19 pandemic. I just want to kind of talk to you about some different situations that are going on. Really, I’m happy that you’re here and I hope you’re doing well.

Keith McDonnell: Yeah, I’m doing fine. I mean, obviously, this whole crisis let’s call it has been a challenge for us all both professionally and personally. I mean, I think the first thing we all have to do was wrap our heads around this, and you go through a process in doing that starting with denial in some ways, but then you get used to it and you get into a routine. And then of course, all the professional challenges kick in. But I think the industry has been pretty good in how it’s tackled those and hopefully we’ll get into some of those today.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah, we will. So, let’s start on the personal side. So, how have you guys adjusted to this whole concept of having to homeschool and really not being able to leave the household and just this whole like a stay in and not really go out lifestyle? Not in a business perspective, but what have you learned, I guess, through this shutdown?

Keith McDonnell: Yeah, it’s been a challenge. I mean, I’d say I’m now, what are we, two months since lockdown or just a little under, used to it and have established a routine. I guess I wasn’t starting from square one and that I haven’t really worked in a corporate office since 2011. My routine personally has been either working from home or flying long haul overseas to Asia or more recently within America or back to Europe.

Keith McDonnell: The sort of having my setup at home and everything from a professional point of view is kind of being business as usual in that regard. I have two kids. They’re both still in school, but they’re both in high school. So, they’re pretty independent. They don’t need me to sit there or my wife to sit there and make sure they’re doing what they have to be doing as part of the online schooling.

Keith McDonnell: They’ve been fantastic. I think over the years and recent years I’ve been very quick to criticize the “youth” as being having things too easy and taking things for granted. Well, I think what’s going on right now is a real crash course and had enough to take things for granted, and actually to be thankful for what you have and had to be creative. I’ve seen that in my own kids, which is good and hopefully that stays with them coming of this.

Keith McDonnell: The sort of personal lifestyle side of things. I guess you and I, Ryan, we’re kind of blessed in a way where we live in the Sunshine State and yes, we’ve had lockdown since March, but I think lockdown in Florida hasn’t quite been as stringent as say lockdown in other States or certainly other countries around the world.

Keith McDonnell: And, of course, as soon as we step outside our front door, we got the sunshine above most days. So, we’re kind of lucky in that regard compared to some people who are stuck in cities and don’t have that option. But we’ve all missed out on going out. It’s a real outdoor climate and environment here, and that includes restaurants. It includes various events we want to go to and they’re all shook apart from slight relaxation this week and we’ll see how that goes.

Keith McDonnell: So, it’s definitely taken adjustment, but I don’t want to say I’m institutionalized, heaven forbid. I don’t want that ever to be [crosstalk 00:03:56], but I certainly feel like we’ve established a new routine now. Yeah.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah. And it’s funny for me on a personal side. I’ve always thought of myself as a fairly active person and really like to get some exercise and do things like that. I’m such a logging person. I track all my stuff that I do. And for some reason, this last month, I ran more than I’ve run in the last two years and I’ve biked more miles than I biked in the last I don’t know how many years.

Ryan Knuppel: And so something about this, just this thought process of having to stay home and not being able to go out and not really having this other almost distractions in life has forced me to kind of be healthier in a way. And it’s kind of a weird … Maybe I’m not eating healthier. That’s probably not true, but I’m getting more exercise. I’m getting out, we’re going on walks as a family, which may sound cheesy, but it’s kind of cool. Kind of a neat concept.

Ryan Knuppel: That’s the one thing I really noticed in my personal life is I’m just getting out in nature. I’m doing things. I’m a little more active, and I don’t really know why because my day to day life hasn’t changed. It’s just this mindset of like, “Okay, I don’t have practices to go to or games to go to. We’re not going out to eat tonight.”

Ryan Knuppel: And so I have more time. I can spend the afternoon and go run because I know I can do this other thing at night or something. I don’t know. It’s been a different mindset for me.

Keith McDonnell: And I think there’s a desire amongst us. The psychology is really interesting to try and squeeze the good and the positives out of the things we can do rather than focusing in dwelling on what we can’t do. For that, that includes things like going for walks. It’s not cheesy at all by the way, but things like going for a walk, going for bike rides.

Keith McDonnell: I had a bike. I bought a bike a year ago. I still get in my garage for 10 months. I’ve been on that bike so much in the last two months to the point where I’ve actually broken the chain. So, just things that I hadn’t got around to doing I’ve now done almost to the max over the last two months, but I’m not going to cycle as much when “normality” returns, but I still want to cycle. I’ve kind of fallen back in love with my bike. Yeah, it’s good. I think there’s hopefully going to be a lot of good things that will come at this.

Ryan Knuppel: Agree. So, let’s shift over to the business side a little bit and I’ll ask you first. So how has the pandemic affected KMiGaming? Have you had to pivot? Have you seen a downturn? Are you kind of business as usual? I’m curious more from like a business perspective how this downturn, what has that done to your business side.

Keith McDonnell: Well, we’re massive experts in e-sports and virtual sports now. I mean, in all seriousness, yes it has affected our business. We provide traditional consultancy services as part of what we do, but we also have been involved over the years in deals that have seen software houses, do deals with operators. The long tail for us on that has been some sort of reward based on performance.

Keith McDonnell: Of course, where that sportsbook orientated, well no sports equals no sports, betting equals no revenue shares. So, that side of the business has taken a real hit. Again, like I said before, I’d rather focus on what we can do. I made a joke over there a second ago, but we have spent a lot of time understanding more about e-sports, understanding more about virtual sports.

Keith McDonnell: I think there’s a huge difference between those two. E-sports, I think, that the upside of that product sustaining itself within the post-COVID world is very, very real. And I think this has probably been a catalyst for dragging e-sports in amongst the typical navigation of a sportsbook.

Keith McDonnell: You have individual sports betting people betting on teams, betting on players who are good. It’s very akin to sports betting. Virtual sports looks great. The graphics are fantastic, but at the end of the day, it’s driven by a random number generator. And I think sports betting people understand that.

Keith McDonnell: That said, I think it will continue to do well within the casino environment, but it doesn’t replace sports betting. But going back to your question, it’s had a very material effect on our day to day. We typically travel quite a bit as part of what we do because networking is very important to us for deal-making, for new business. And, of course, that’s been wiped out pretty much or totally.

Keith McDonnell: And as I said, those sort of deals where we had structures based on revenues, they’re gone too. So, we’ve had to pivot. A lot of that has been learning. A lot of it has been positive, and I think we will benefit from that in the long run. And hopefully, it will put us into a stronger position when we come out of this.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah, that’s a great point. And I hope a lot of businesses heard what you just said there and really think of maybe some of these things that they’re doing in their business, the pivots that they’re making or the things they’re able to focus on now are going to help them come out as a better company in the end.

Ryan Knuppel: We may not like that there’s not sports or sports betting going on, but like from our company’s perspective, we do content creation in the iGaming industry. And we’ve probably focused 90% of our activity on sports betting over the years. And that’s really scary when they come and say, “There’s no sports.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what the heck are we going to do?”

Ryan Knuppel: But what’s funny is it forced us to now diversify into areas that we kind of did a little bit in, in areas that I knew that we’d be good at, but we just never took that step to really make it happen.

Ryan Knuppel: And now that we’re doing casino content, we’re doing e-sports content, we’re doing different types of sports betting strategies and all sorts of stuff that we’re kind of branching out into. I just know that when sports actually come back and we’re doing our day to day content again like we were, we’re going to be so much better of a company and we’re going to have all these other areas that are now blooming because of this time that we chose to not say, “Woe is me. And, Oh, we’re just going to fold for a while and let everybody go, ‘No, we’re going to push through this and we’re going to try to find other areas to grow.'”

Ryan Knuppel: I think businesses can really learn from that concept and try to do the same in whatever industry they’re in. Find ways to maybe fix that process has been broken or fix something that you’ve been wanting to fix for a while in your business while you are as busy. I think that’s a great learning lesson for people.

Keith McDonnell: Totally agree. It’s hard to believe as we sit here right now, but when we had a full calendar of sports, there were weekends or there were times during the week when we, within the industry, or sports fans would look at each other and say, “Hey, it’s a pretty quiet day today.” That’s with a full calendar of sports.

Keith McDonnell: For whatever reason, the way the fixtures lay or whatever, it was a quiet weekend or it was a quiet day or whatever it may be. Hard to believe that now, but there were. I think coming out of this, operators and content producers such as yourself, but anybody who’s involved in sports will have found ways to more effectively and more genuinely plug those gaps, right?

Keith McDonnell: So, as an operator, it might be, “Okay, it is a quiet weekend in soccer or whatever, let’s go big on an e-sports tournament, or let’s find a genuine way to offer 24/7 sports content coverage and betting opportunities.” And I think in the past, it’s been a little bit reactive. I think now, operators and content producers, and broadcasters and everybody will more naturally think of how to provide what a customer or a sports betting guy wants and be able to do it more effectively.

Ryan Knuppel: 100%. So, let’s talk a little bit about, speaking of pivoting in one area especially in the iGaming industry that we kind of had to all pivot was the event space. That’s something we all have grown to love, traveling to events and going to different events, whether it be in the United States or worldwide. Going to the ICE events and the SBC events and all of the events that are put on.

Ryan Knuppel: All of these companies had to shift to kind of a virtual platform and not only the big events but even the smaller meetups and the gatherings are all going to these webinars events and these virtual events which are awesome. But I want to get your high level, I guess, feedback on what these have been like for you. And do you think these will take the place of events even when things come back to normal?

Keith McDonnell: I never think that they’ll take the place of events. There’s something specifically within our industry but probably in other industries too where just getting together in one place, whether it be Vegas, New Orleans, New York, London, whatever as an industry and swapping stories and exchanges over breakfast in or lunch, beer or whatever, that just can’t be replaced.

Keith McDonnell: I think the event organizers over the last two months have done an incredible job in terms of what they’ve done, and I’m talking across the board. I’m talking all of these guys that have really stepped up when we’ve needed the most. I know from my personal experience.

Keith McDonnell: I go to lots of conferences every year. I’m kind of a social guy and because when I’m not at those, I’m working from home most of the time. We have a remote network within our organization. I need that social interaction, and that was switched off two months ago.

Keith McDonnell: So, these guys stepping up and putting these events on has been fantastic. I know the first month I was signing up to all of them. I needed to see people. I needed to hear them. The chance to interact and I was typing away on the chat bars while people were talking. It was fantastic.

Keith McDonnell: I think as time has gone on, I’ve been less inclined. I’ve been a little bit more choosy, almost the way I would be about where I fly to, to go to an event. And I think that’s because there actually are quite a lot of webinar opportunities now. There’s quite a lot of conferences, but they’re still very good.

Keith McDonnell: The most recent one, SBC last week, one of my team here went and took notes all day and told me all about it. She said it was fantastic. I had a quick look myself at the lobby and all the effort they’d put into the display, and it was amazing. Next week, we have ICE North America. I was going to say in New Orleans, it’s on the Internet, but it meant to be in New Orleans, but they’ve stepped up. They’re going to do something slightly differently. I’ve prerecorded something for that.

Keith McDonnell: So, I think, I want to firstly praise everybody who stepped up and delivered this to us as an industry. But secondly, it will never replace us all getting together. We are inherently extremely social. We work in an entertainment based business. This not attracts a certain type of person. But I see a real world where they coexist and actually I think webinars and digital conferences will be the better for this, but they’ll never replace us getting together and having my beer.

Ryan Knuppel: Totally agree with that. And over the years, I’ve become a little more social as well. I used to be very introverted, believe it or not. And over the last couple of years really jumping into this space here in the United States kind of legalizing sports betting. It’s really forced me to kind of be a little more social, which I just now crave.

Ryan Knuppel: And over the last two months, I’ve been like, “Man, I’m really missing out. We’re all missing out on these events.” I just want to echo your praises, especially for the SBC event. I thought it was amazing. I’m really looking forward to the ICE event next week. In several other webinars that I’d been a part of and just different things that we’ve done over the last few months.

Ryan Knuppel: The industry did step up and they stepped up quickly. I mean, it’s not easy to put together … When you think you’re going to do a live event and then in two weeks now all of a sudden you got to put together a virtual event, you have no idea what platform you’re going to use. You have to communicate with everybody. You kind of got to get it all set up, get your speakers lined up. Not an easy task to do and I thought so far, the industry has really done a good job of that. But I do agree with you. It better not replace it for good because we need to meet up in Vegas or New Orleans. I was really looking forward to that as well.

Keith McDonnell: Ryan, you and I are going to get to Florida and meet up going at some point. So, as soon as [crosstalk 00:16:47].

Ryan Knuppel: 100%, Keith. I mean, that’s number one priority once we can meet up, so we’ll make that happen. All right, let’s shift gears a little bit again. I want to talk a little bit more about the US sports betting industry as a whole. So, I thought before this pandemic hit two months ago, I felt like we had some really good momentum in the industry.

Ryan Knuppel: I mean it felt like the past year or two has just been steady amounts of news, state by state legalizing different partnerships, different acquisitions and things just seem to really be picking up in momentum. Now, this hit and things have maybe slowed down a little bit naturally with casinos and sports books and everything being closed.

Ryan Knuppel: Do you think when this comes back and we’re kind of … Or when things start to, I guess, open up again, will this momentum just pick up right where it left off or are we going to see kind of a role here in the sports betting legalization landscape?

Keith McDonnell: I don’t think it’s going to pick up where I left off. I think it’s going to pick up with a turbo charger open task. Because honestly, I mean even in this quiet time, and we talk about since lockdown, there’s been two major commercial deals done. We’ve seen the deal with SBTech and DraftKings go through. We’ve seen the deal with Flutter and Stars Group go through.

Keith McDonnell: Today, there was another one, not on the same scale, but involving our guy under Sportnation and Esports Entertainment Group, again on Nasdaq. So, there’s a lot of corporate deal-making going on while we’re going through this. But I think the real reason for the turbo charge on the momentum in my mind anyway is that I think that a lot of the resistance to the evolution of sports betting across the country may be brought into question and may actually dissipate.

Keith McDonnell: If we analyze it, there was states against it for various reasons, whether it be moral, social or whatever. The reasons were local to that state. There were corporate reasons because maybe land and bricks and mortar based casinos were opposed to iGaming as they saw it as a threat, which is a challenge I had to deal with 20 years ago in the UK, and it’s here now within certain corporations.

Keith McDonnell: I think when you look at those organizations individually, states, they’re going to need tax income, right? I mean, the tax deficit because of what we’re going through now is going to be enormous. There’s going to need to be additional stimulus for the coffers. What better way than to include an evolution of sports betting and regulated live gaming as part of that contributor to the funds?

Keith McDonnell: From a corporate opposition point of view, those bricks and mortar casinos, well, if they had an iGaming platform right now, they’d be earning money as we speak, but they’re not. The casinos should have. So, I think they may be taking a crash course in why iGaming is not a threat, which I don’t think it is anyway, regardless of …

Keith McDonnell: I’m not trying to say their hands should be forced to it, but some of these land-based guys, they can get their heads around the opportunity that iGaming brings and offer loyalty programs where people who are loyal customers online can come and have a comped weekend, five star dinner, all these things. But land-based casinos can offer and iGaming companies can’t.

Keith McDonnell: But that’s the way of them owning their state through online as well. So, I actually think that some of the factors that we’re actually holding back expanded momentum prior to this may become lesser factors. And actually, this could speed things up in terms of evolution.

Keith McDonnell: Obviously, we’re stuck in the trenches right now. But on coming out of that, I see this moving forward at a faster pace. I mean added to that, there’s a sort of political issues if you like. I think people are going to be more resilient. We’ve people are forced to be more creative and marketing and product.

Keith McDonnell: You think of some of the conversations going on internally to try and get revenues during this time in a responsible way. It’s not easy, it’s a balancing act, but it’s, again, a learning opportunity for people. And on the product side, we’ve already talked about it, Ryan. We’ve had the traditional suite of products prior to this, very comfortable. We sort of tremble along, but this is required creativity. It’s required innovation. It’s going to hold e-sports into the mainstream and other product verticals too. There’s been a resurgence of poker.

Keith McDonnell: I think there’s a number of factors that are actually coming out of this. I personally think the momentum is going to swell. 12 to 24 months after this, we’re going to see a lot more states open up, both to sports betting but iGaming as well.

Ryan Knuppel: Wow. That’s like a mic drop. Keith McDonnell of KMiGaming. Man, there was like some quotes in there that I’m going to be using for the next few weeks, Keith. I’m not even going to expand on what you just said because I think you beautifully projected what this could mean to the iGaming and just the industry as a whole. So man, that was a great answer. Thank you for that.

Keith McDonnell: Sure.

Ryan Knuppel: Like I said, I’m not even going to try to expand on what you said. I’m just going to say, “What he said.” That’s the answer I have, what he said. So, great job with that answer. But speaking of being in the trenches right now, there’s one thing that we’re all speculating of and that we keep hearing rumors of. It’s like, “When is sports going to actually come back? Will there be a finish of this NBA season? Will there even be a baseball season? Will we be ready when football comes around? God, we better be ready when football comes around or none of us will live.”

Ryan Knuppel: That’s where everybody keeps asking me is, “When will sports comes back?” We don’t know, but we’re starting to see things happen. We’re starting to see UFC come back this month. There’s going to be quite a few events going on. NASCAR is coming back. I personally do think NBA is going to have the end of a season. I kind of go back and forth on that answer, but right now I’m feeling like they’re starting to open up practice facilities as they can.

Ryan Knuppel: I think they’re going to figure out something. I don’t know what that’s going to look like, but I think they’re going to figure out something. I think when it all comes back, man, the schedule and the craving around the nation from a user and an engagement perspective is going to be just unheard of and absurd. So, I’m to see when that happens. Do you have any thoughts on what leagues will come back first or what they’re going to do here in the next, whatever, one to six months?

Keith McDonnell: Yeah. I’m far more optimistic about things generally on that point, Ryan than I was say a month ago. It is going to be gradual. Every morning, I wake up and I look for green shoots and glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel. And as you say, the UFC I think is this Saturday in Jacksonville.

Keith McDonnell: Our home state has given Dana White and his boys the chance to get something going there. Tony Ferguson is at the top of the bill, so it’s a pretty good fight. That will be interesting to see how those guys can do with social distancing, but I’m assuming they have the relevant testing procedures in place and quantity as well.

Keith McDonnell: We’ve heard of golf coming back this month in Florida also. Not PGA, that’s next month, but Rory McIlroy is playing an event with Justin Johnson and a couple of other guys which will be built for TV. I think that’s a week on Sunday. That’s great.

Keith McDonnell: In the UK, they’ve had some darts on TV where they’ve been really creative about getting players in their own living rooms throwing boards, electronic boards. So, the scoring is electronically collated. These are pros. They’re playing against each other. Far from ideal, but it’s a lot better than nothing.

Keith McDonnell: Some sports, of course, lend themselves better to getting things back going earlier than others. Golf being a prime example and that’s why we have … I think it’s June the 8th or some date in early June table as the return for the PGA.

Keith McDonnell: When you say football, I feel your pain, Ryan. To me, football still means soccer, right? We had our seasons totally derailed halfway through. I’m a Liverpool fan as well, so we’re like way clear at the top of the premier league in England and the season has stopped, so I’m extremely frustrated.

Keith McDonnell: But the good news there being the Bundesliga was given the green light by Angela Merkel yesterday in Germany to continue on the 15th of May. I think a lot of the European soccer leagues will be looking at that really closely to see how they do. The French and the Dutch leagues have decided they’re going to not play again this year. But the other big leagues like Spain and Italy, we still hold out hopes.

Keith McDonnell: I’m hopeful for the big US sports. I hear various stories about the NBA. I’m sure you do too. One of which involves getting teams together and competing in a tournament type capacity. Similar for the MLB. Football, we hear that there’s no change at this point to the start of the season, but the question mark is over whether fans can attend the course.

Keith McDonnell: I think the pandemic if were to fall well for any sports, it was probably football, your guys’ football. Given it hasn’t interrupted anything and there’s still a possibility the new season could start on time. But of course, this hasn’t been good for anyone because it upset the draft and that upset training and everything else.

Keith McDonnell: I’m pretty optimistic. I also think from a sports betting perspective, going back to my soccer example, if we look in Europe probably … I don’t know, in the UK, maybe 10%, the betting on soccer would have been on the Bundesliga. Well, I think that’s going to be a lot higher when it returns the week on Saturday.

Keith McDonnell: I think there’s going to be a lot of eyeballs watching Germany. And very quickly, a lot of people in England and probably other countries around the world will suddenly have a favorite German team. So, it could be good for the Bundesliga in real terms.

Keith McDonnell: So again, I’m optimistic. Of course, every league is looking at the other and seeing what happens. We’d all be seeing what comes out of the UFC event this weekend. We like to think these people with brains in charge of these league and hopefully, this can be more a case of two steps forward and one step back than anything else we can progress.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah, I think the hard part in just being … Here in the United States and seeing everything that’s going on, the states are just so almost like different countries. Every state has their own rules and their own things going on. That to me is the biggest, just the biggest gray area in all of this.

Ryan Knuppel: Because to really have a sport work into one of these major sports, like the NBA or the NFL, I mean there’s teams in every state all over the place. And so really to have that work, you’re going to have to have all states on board to like the rules and having things working.

Ryan Knuppel: Unless you’re going to truly take a sport, you try to do it in Vegas or try to do it in … I heard Disney was going to open their campus to some sport or something like that. I don’t know how that would work very well. Playing baseball only in Arizona. That doesn’t seem like it’s going to work real well. So, I think you’re going to have to get all the states really up to the same level and I just don’t see that happening right now and it’s frustrating.

Ryan Knuppel: But I think when that does happen, the sports are going to be ready to go. So, I don’t know, we’ll see what happens. I like your positivity and I’m kind of with you there, but I also see some roadblocks that we still have to get through here.

Keith McDonnell: There’s no doubt there’s roadblocks. The league I’ve watched the closest because it’s the closest to my heart is the Premier League in England. It’s so complex getting that league going again. At the end of the day, there is simply not going to be a solution that everybody is happy with. It’s just impossible given the requirement until we get back to old normal. Presumably when there’s a vaccine.

Keith McDonnell: Whatever the solutions are in any league, it’s going to require a give and take from most people. Very few, if any, are going to get an ideal situation for them. It’s interesting to me in the premier league this week. The biggest dissenters to getting things back are those that are in threat of relegation. Yet they don’t say it’s because they’re going to get relegated, but they say it’s because of health of the players and all this, but they’re the most vocal about it, but they have the reason to be most vocal about it.

Keith McDonnell: So, I just think it’s going to require a give and take on everyone’s part. And if that doesn’t happen within the league, then I agree with you. It’s going to be very, very different.

Ryan Knuppel: Awesome. Well, I can talk to you all day, but for sake of time I think we’d better be wrapping up. I got five questions for you. I’m going to put you on the spot here. I got five questions. All I need is a quick answer. I need your quickest answer right off the top of your head. I know you’re going to have some great one word, two word answers for me. Are you ready for this? Are you going to be able to answer my five questions with one or two words? What do you think?

Keith McDonnell: Depends on the questions.

Ryan Knuppel: You’ll be fine. I think you’re going to enjoy this. So here we go. You ready? Will the NBA finished their season this season?

Keith McDonnell: Yes.

Ryan Knuppel: Will betting on Sports America event, will that actually happen in December?

Keith McDonnell: No.

Ryan Knuppel: Have you actually played in an e-sports event yourself?

Keith McDonnell: No.

Ryan Knuppel: What is the next state to legalize sports betting? It’s a tough one. Pause is okay.

Keith McDonnell: Massachusetts.

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, nice. Okay. And last one, what year will Florida legalize sports betting?

Keith McDonnell: 2023

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, you’re killing me, Keith. You’re killing me. 2023, we can’t wait that long. Come on. Oh, great answers man. I appreciate you doing that for me. That’s fun. You haven’t played any e-sports yet, huh? You haven’t gotten into gaming.

Keith McDonnell: My son has and I’ve watched him doing it and it’s only because I’m terrible. I actually did the crash course to get my head around e-sports betting. My son is 18, so he’s perfect. He sat with me and I took him through. Not that I’m encouraging him to gamble, of course, but I want to show him what’s happening within our sector.

Keith McDonnell: And I said, “Listen, my blind spot is not understanding the actual products. I understand football.” So, he sat with me and he took me through a few games and he played it. I probably learned what I needed to learn from my thing watching him play then me playing because I’d just be one on one, and I probably wouldn’t know anything more about the game if I was too focused on how to get the thing on the screen to move. Yeah, he was very helpful enough.

Ryan Knuppel: Amazing. Awesome. All right, Keith. Well, what else? Do you have anything else? Any closing words for the audience here? I really appreciate you joining me and thus being able to just kind of talk about what’s going on here. Anything we missed that you want to touch on?

Keith McDonnell: Not really, Ryan. I mean thank you for … It’s nice to talk to you and as I said at the beginning, opportunities to reach out and speak to other industry folk are very welcome and appreciated at this time. I think hopefully, and I do believe this, we have a really positive future ahead and it’s going to be tough and it’s not going to be an overnight thing, but for me, the macro ingredients are there and we have some great people in the industry. I’m proud to be a part of it and look forward to seeing what’s going to happen here over the next 12 to 24 months.

Ryan Knuppel: Me as well. I super appreciate you being here, Keith and everybody listening. Thank you for tuning in to this. I want to encourage you guys. If you want to reach out to myself or Keith, I know Keith is always open to talking to people, have questions, comments, just want to talk about the industry. We’re both always available for that type of thing.

Ryan Knuppel: So, shoot either of us a message. I’ll put links in the show notes of this. I’ll put links to how you can get to both of us out there, but we’re always looking forward to talking to some of you guys in the industry. So, with that, Keith, I’ll let you go and I wish you all the best. Stay safe, and I can’t wait to meet up over a drink here when we can actually get together again.

Keith McDonnell: Look forward to it, Ryan. Thanks very much.

Ryan Knuppel: All right, take care everybody. Bye-bye.

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